Re: Jochen's commitment to God's Truth? #1 and #2

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Posted by Jochen Katz on March 21, 1998 at 01:09:22:

In Reply to: Re: Jochen's commitment to God's Truth? #1 and #2 posted by Mohamed Ghounem on March 20, 1998 at 14:38:22:

Dear Mohamed,

I am glad you have not forgotten me and seemingly are reading
the pages of our web site once in a while.

: this is to see if you are commited to God's Truth as you say you are in your
: promise page Click Here.

I am very committed to God's truth, but by now you should know
that we have a different view on what this truth is. That is the
problem here.

: You make a promise that you are commited to God's Truth and say
: 'if there are any misrepresentations or mistakes on your part,
: you will remove it from your site.'

Actually, I never said that. You claim this is a quotation from my
pages but it is not. I really would appreciate if you could be more
careful with your claims and not put words into my mouth and make
sure that when you give the impression something is a quotation
that it actually is one. The above is not.

I said that if there are errors of various kinds then we will
CORRECT them. You seem to imply this means the removal of the pages.
No, most arguments do not depend on some little detail. We will
correct the argument where it is faulty. If the error is serious
so that the argument is wrong in totality, then we will remove it
but that is rare.

Now, let's see what your grievances are.

: I have over the course of Over a Month, have told you publicly
: and privately, that the very First mis-representation is that
: when the word Qur'an is used, it should say _Transladtion_ of the Quran.

I am sure our spell checker would not like if we introduce
errors into our pages by adding words like "Transladtion".

The articles on our site are supposed to be read with intelligence.
Everyone knows that the Qur'an is in Arabic and that English
quotations are translations. Every Muslim knows this and every
Christian knows this as well. After all, it is the same with the
Bible.

Putting the word "translation of" in front of thousands of times
the word Qur'an is mentioned on our site not only introduces a
high redundancy but will actually make the reading of the articles
rather laborious.

But then, I do wonder why you would demand something from me
that not even Islamic web sites themselves are doing. For example
go to this page of Investigating Islam to see that in the second
paragraph it speak about the Qur'an and quotes an English translation.
I am sure the web master will appreciate if you would point out
to him that he has to change in all his over 100 pages in every
mentioning of "Qur'an" with an English quote that this is a
translation and not the original.

After you have convinced and move him to change, then I can give you
a few more large Islamic web sites. Should you manage to convince
just five of them, then I might think about your proposal. But otherwise
I think it is silly. Muslims don't do it and why would you demand this
from me? What is this double standard about?

But you might not be impressed by what other wayward Muslims do, so
I looked around a bit on this very webboard that contains many of your
messages. Just nine days ago you posted this message and
you quoted many verses from the Qur'an but you forgot to tell us that
this is not the Qur'an but only a translation.

If you don't do this, and if you want I am sure I can find 20 or 30
messages written by YOU yourself where you quote the Qur'an and
do NOT point out on that page that this is only a translation.

Would it be very strange to get the impression that your demand is
bordering on hypocrisy? Should I go to every of your messages and
post responses to them with a link to your demand which you do not
even obey yourself?

: All Muslim Translations make the clear distiction in the first few pages,
: that the Translation is not fully equivalent to the original Qur'an, as
: any linguist will Testify that a Translation is a scholarly human attempt
: to match the Original, yet you do not make that distiction, a Clear
: Misrepresentation.

Isn't it interesting that you are in the constant habit of misrepresenting
the Qur'an on this forum with your quotations?

But obviously, you do it with good intention and I do it with bad
intention. I am not a translator. I do not make Qur'an translations.
This is a proper remark in the introduction of a translation but it
is not proper to put this phrase or remark before every mentioning
of a Qur'an verse in an an article. Nobody does it and it would be
absolutely ridiculous to demand this. That doesn't hinder you to
demand it anyway. For some time now, your only goal on this web board
has been to find some fault with me and to somehow trying to make me
look bad. What is the point, Mohamed?

: Once that very first correction is made, then I shall see a reason
: to go on, I shall see that you are Truely commited to God's Truth,
: and not Just a deciever, because a Deciever CAN NOT be a Believer.

Hm, whom are you talking about, labeling him a deceiver?
You mean you are a deceiver because of your messages on this board
that do not explicitely mention that your quotes are only translations?

: One other thing, since you sent this to me a two months ago:
: You falsely claim that the Qur'an says that the moon is in a middle
: Heaven, which currently appears on your site Click Here.


: I found this to be going against everything you state on your promise page

I told you before that I will update this. I am sorry I forgot about it.
The reason is very easy. I have not worked on this part of my site for a
long time. I filed your response and my response to it in that directory
and the next time around working there I would have incorporated it. But
I agree it has been a while. Thank you for reminding me.

: You say that if there is any misrepresentations or mistakes
: then you will remove it.

Again, I said "correct it", not remove the page.

: You personelly admit Click Here that you made a mistake concerning the
: Moon issue.

But not as much of a mistake than you would like. I have not had it
formulated very well. But since you have reminded me and have made
"pressure" in this issue now, I have improved the presentation today
and largely rewritten that page. The new page about the location
of the moon
is now uploaded in the UK. I hope it will find your approval.
I even added a link to your response on this web board. It will take
until next week until the US site will have it too.

: Yet it is now currently on your site, along with all the rest of
: your decievements that I won't get into now, which is a direct and
: clear violation of your own rules of you being commited to God's
: Truth, shall I say (hypocrite) does God like hypocrites?, I will
: see if you are a deciever or a Believer.

Hm, have I not seen something hypocritical just a few paragraphs
above? What is the point, Mohamed, of accusing others of evil motivations?
I have a clear conscience. I try to the best of may ability and knowledge
to make known the truth of God. I make mistakes at times and will make
efforts to correct where possible. I am glad you brought this one to
my attention again. I had actually reacted on your private email to
me about the matter, and spent about one hour updateding and correcting
my page and only after that I found out that you also posted this as a
public accusation. Had it been a private communication only, I would
thanked you in a private email. Now that you had to publically accuse
again (what else is new?), you can't fault anyone but yourself for my
response.

I make every effort to be honest and upright in what I do.
And I assume that you too say and write things you sincerely
believe. I think you are severely mistaken in many of them
but this is a different issue. We might not agree what is the
truth, but there is no need to call others by bad names and insult
them by questioning their sincerety.

I hope we can agree on this and you will make an effort to watch
your language from now on.

: You claim only one Muslim has made the request for a change, well I will
: now see if it is worth being #2 Muslim who makes the request, because if
: the request is not met, then no one should waiste their time with your
: false claims of commitment to God's Truth.

I do not like your approach but I appreciate that you are passionate
about your faith. That is better than being disinterested in the things
of God. I don't think blackmailing and accusations etc are of any value
in a dialog between the different religions.

However, since I certainly do not want to give the impression that I ignore
requests for corrections or improvements, I have now added a link to your
request on the above mentioned page promising to do so.

If you rather not have this particular link to this page, you can send
another request and I will remove it again. But I don't want to be accused
of ignoring you or any Muslim response.

: I do not know what group you represent but they sure are giving a bad
: name to Christians :-)

Sadly you seem to enjoy it quite a bit when people make Christians look
bad, even if this is reality only in your own opinion.

: Peace and Blessings,

Do you only say this or do you actually mean it?

I have a hard time believing you after your various insults not only in
this message but many messages on this board. It doesn't ring true to
me. If you really want to bless me, you would not constantly attack my
personal integrity and call me deceiver, hypocrite and other names.

May the true peace of the Lord touch you
and may He guide you into all truth.

Jochen Katz

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